Hello, my name is Lavinia Osborne of Women in Blockchain Talks and welcome to another Women in Blockchain Talks podcast. Today I have the lovely and amazing and a very dear friend of mine, Kaitlin. Kaitlin is the founder and CEO of Crypto Mondays London, one of London's largest and longest running monthly meetups dedicated to providing education and networking opportunities to the Web3 and blockchain space. She is also, and I'm very proud to say this, because she's my friend, she is also a publisher for Blockbeat, a digital asset vertical in CityAM newspaper here in London. And she is the head of events for Kudos, a layer one and Web3 marketing consultant who has worked with Nym Technologies, Lawbeam and Blockchain Lex to name a few. She started working in the blockchain industry in 2017 and specializes in Web3 marketing, events, community building and networking. Now, one other thing that's very interesting about Kaitlin, which we will dive into a little bit later, is that she is a theater actress. And so she has been on stage and she's walked...the the planks, the theatre planks here in Paris and also in London and I believe also in America. So she's very international and she also speaks French.
Not fluently. Doesn't matter. I always like to bring that international feel to my podcast. So welcome, Kaitlin. Thank you, Lavinia.
That was a Brilliant, welcome. Thank you so much. You're welcome, you're welcome. So, you know, I really have to say that I've been in the blockchain web3 space for a while now. Women in Blockchain Talks is coming up to its five year anniversary this coming September. And one of the first people I got to know was Kaitlin. And I remember I was looking, I first started Women in Blockchain Talks and I was looking for an event space and I was recommended to Kaitlin and then I went to one of her events and I was like, wow, this is so nice. And of course the venue she was having in, which was Consensus, right? It was back, yeah, back in the Consensus building. So when was it, you guys started 2019, was it? September 2019. Yeah, I remember. Yeah, September 2019 and then, but we didn't meet. Yeah, it was, yeah, so we met in 2019. Because you came and did a talk for Crypto Mondays.
Yes, I did. Way back then. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I forgot about that. Yes, I did do a talk back in 2019. And this is when, I mean, obviously Women in Blockchain Talks now has evolved to be a many -faceted thing, but at that point you were doing interviews. You were interviewing women in the space and it was pretty new because I remember you talking at Crypto Mondays about, this is my event, come along, it's open to all genders, but I really want to highlight the women in the space, which I thought was brilliant. Yeah. Yeah.
No, you're absolutely right. And so we, we, I was at the time I, and as many people or those who know my background story, one of the things I say is that when I started Women in Blockchain Talks, I was like, I want to be the Oprah of blockchain. Yes. Speaking that into existence. Exactly. I still want to be the.someone said to me, I think it was Lauren Ingraham, a woman of word three, she said, Lavinia, I think you've accomplished that. You are the Oprah of blockchain. But yeah, so I'd like to take it to the next level, however that looks like. I do have an idea in my head, but I'll leave it to the universe to manifest that. But I remember at the time I was interviewing women who were further ahead of me and building and leading, and I still do that anyway. And so like I said, I was looking for a venue and I was recommended to Kaitlin. I went to her events, Crypto Mondays. So I was probably one of the kind of like first people to be going because I mean now you have like 100 people attending your makeshomath. Yeah, they've really, really grown. I mean when we started, so they started in February of 2018 and at that point I was happy if even like three or four people showed up and they were always men and they always wanted to talk about Bitcoin. There wasn't really any other topic. So it would be me and a handful of guys sitting around talking about Bitcoin. So that was the first kind of iteration of Crypto Mondays back then. Yeah. And then once we got the deal with consensus, that was sort of a game changer because then we had a home, so to speak. And that was really useful in terms of growth.
And then off the back of that, I mean, this is one of the things I've always loved about the Web3 space. is that it's always been open. Like people are open to join their events, join their communities, their network. I feel like, and this is how I've moved in this space, like we don't have ownership over people, it's decentralized. So why are we gonna bring, there's certain elements where you do need to be centralized, where you're giving guidance or, yeah, you're giving guidance or
What's the word when you have the signposting, that's the word, signposting to people. So of course, if you're signposting, then you're gonna signpost companies, people who you trust, know and like. And so to a degree, there's an element of centralization because it's based on people that I know. But in regards to ownership and like,oh well, you need to tell me who you've connected with or if I've connected, no, it's got to be free flowing, it's got to be decentralized and that's a mindset that one has. And Kaitlin definitely embodies that and she has become, I would say, one of my bestest friends in the Web3 space.
And it's, can I just say, it is so important to have those people that you can have as a sounding board, as a support system, when something's going wrong. It's very niche still. And so, you know, my best friend in Florida, I can call her and talk about guy problems or, you know, what's going on in my life. But when it comes to the specifics of the community of Web3, it's really hard to find those people. So I'm very grateful that we have that kind of rapport where if I need something, I know I can message with any. I'm very grateful for that. Yeah. And we do it all the time. It's like we will just sound board off each other. And just also when you're doing when you're when you are a pioneer, which is what we are, and it's not a pioneer because we're doing something brand new, but it's a pioneer in the sense of that we are building in a new and nascent space. You know, a lot of people say, is it too late? You know, I feel like I'm being left behind. No. We are still so early. There's still so much to do, so much to do on the compliance, on the regulation on the community building, on the opportunities, on the funding, on the diversity, which is the area that I really focus on. And in addition to that content, good quality content, and that's definitely something that Kaitlin and the Crypto Monday London's crew deliver quality. But just going back to what I was saying, so yeah, so I went to Consensus and it was like, wow, to the Consensus space, I should say, so it was a Crypto Monday. And I just really, it was just so inviting and so nice and she was just so helpful with my event. And the interesting thing is since I started Women in Blockchain Talks and now do a blockchain business breakfast, and Kaitlin has never come to that because she's like, Lavinia, I'm not getting up early, that's too early for me. But I remember when I was doing those events in the evenings, Kaitlin would come along and she would support. And again, going back to what Kaitlin was saying, it's so important to have that support. So with that being said, as most people know and Kaitlin knows, I am all about, you know, women in blockchain talks is open to all communities, but I'm very much focused about women because a number speaks for themselves. There is, you know, there's only a handful of women who are leading blockchain web3 businesses.
the startup arena when it comes to women being in the space, the numbers are lacking. It's increased and it's also stalled because of course we just come out of a crypto winter and we actually have compared to the women, the number of women based on the data who are actually engaged in crypto purchasing and holding crypto but then not building or leading in the crypto web three blockchain space.it is very telling. So there's more women engaging and less women who are actually building and leading and not just on the technical, dev side, but also on the non -technical side. And so, Kaitlin and I have had conversations about, you know, being women in blockchain. And I do wear that badge and fly that flag very evidently and very passionately. Kaitlin doesn't.
And that is absolutely fine. But Kaitlin, explain to us why. What's your thoughts around that? I...
Right. So when I think about things like Women in Tech or International Women's Day, for example, it really taps into a rage that I have. I have an anger about it. Whereas I really appreciate Lavinia's approach of celebrating. This is an opportunity to celebrate and to talk about the lack of women and diversity in this particular industry. And I find it so enraging, not your love of it, but just the fact that we even need one. I think that's where my rage comes from, this idea that we are still playing catch up. And it frustrates me to no end. And this is why, for example, I was told by my team, you need to do an International Women's Day post. And I was like, I really don't want to. God, all right, fine, I'll do one. And the thing is, of course, I'm happy to do it. Ultimately, I'm happy to thank the incredible women on the team, all the incredible women. I mean, there are some phenomenal, incredibly clever women in this space that deserve to be celebrated. I guess my issue is they should be celebrated regardless of their gender. So while I am a big proponent, you know, and an advocate as well, hence why we partner with women in blockchain talks and why I think what you do, women of Web3, what they do, Babs Labs, like there's many initiatives. Why I think they're all so important. I'm very aware of the lack of women in this space. I mean, I remember in 2017, I went to, we were doing an ICO. I worked for a company that was doing an ICO at the time we went to New York to Wall Street to pitch to investors. Um, all men, I was the only woman in this space and I started going to side events. I think maybe there were a handful at the original crypto Mondays, but other than that, all men, every single space I walked into, I was one of the only women and that's intimidating. And that's tough. And so I have witnessed it. I have been there. I have seen it. And it's a challenge. And so that's why I do think these things are important. But I guess for me, I feel this conflict with it, this internal conflict. And I fight with myself all the time about it. I need to be an advocate. I've gotten to the place where I am from the support of other women, 100%. But yeah, that's kind of my internal conflict about it. So I wonder sometimes, should I have focused more on the fact that I'm a woman in this space and leveraged that and been more vocal about that or not. I'm not sure. That's my human vulnerability, I guess. My human error. I don't know. Yeah. I don't think there's a right or wrong. I think everybody has their journey and their role to play in the evolution of gender equality and also in the evolution of building a new space because I do think it comes with its pros and cons. We are in a male dominated space and unfortunately there will be some males and individuals full stop, women included, but majority of men who will feel like I don't want to deal with that person because they're just going to be jumping on that diversity bandwagon and right now I need to focus on profit and not focus on diversity. I'll look into that at a later date. And so it sometimes can close doors that may be open to other people, other women who are not leading with the diversity. I think what is important and why you and I can connect and why we can build and you've touched on it is that this is what I lead on and you respect that and you support it and you will open a door, you'll put me on the stage because I don't need to go on stage and just be like, I'm for women, for women. The title speaks for itself and then how I discuss things, you will hear my passion of diversity. I think there's different ways of communicating your passion without shoving it down someone's throat. And so I feel, so two things, I feel like,
As long as you as a woman understand the need. Oh, 100 % there's a need. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think that there's two approaches there. There's this approach of like, this is needed. Women are here. Let's bring this up as often as possible. And I still do that. You know, when I see panels that are all men, I will question people. I would never personally at Crypto Mondays put on a panel that's all men. I would never have a team of all men. That just would never happen. But equally, and I know I've said this before, I always sort of wonder the women are working so hard at this, but what are the men doing? Because I really think we need that allyship from men. We still live in a patriarchal society. It is still vast majority men who are in these decision -making roles of authority. What are they doing to ensure that women are being included and considered in every stage of the business? And diversity is about diverse perspectives. And this is what Kaitlin is bringing to the table. So I respect, I mean, we've had this conversation and I respect your position, because it's not a stance, it's a position. And for me, I have walked in too many rooms, similar to Kaitlin, and I'm the only woman, but I'm also the only black person. And sometimes black woman, but black person in the room. And it is very overwhelming at times. I think when you do what you need to do, You just normalise it. This is just how it is. Let's crack on. Let's do what needs to be done. But, you know, it is an overwhelming factor. And for me, I feel like I'm a walking signpost or, you know, billboard for diversity simply because I'm a woman and I'm a black woman. And there's not that many people who look like me doing what I'm doing here in the UK, much less across different parts of the Western world, so to speak.
I agree. And that representation that you represent is really important, too. I think when when people say sort of that representation matters, that they can see themselves in these types of roles, younger people or people who are others, you know, in any way, shape or form can see that there is a leader in this space that looks like me. And I think that is really powerful.
Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I don't say that in a self sort of congratulatory away. I say it because I've had people come up to me, black men and Asian women, you know, so like, Kaitlin just said, others who will say, wow, it's amazing to see someone like you. I mean, I was just recently at the FCA, the Financial Conduct Authority, and we were exhibiting there, and someone came up to me and they said, I've never heard women talking about crypto, blockchain, and web three. I know I'm -I was like, what? But this is my world each and every day and it's your world each and every day. So it's normal for us to see women, but outside of, not even our bubble, because I don't think that we exist in a bubble. The space is open for anyone to come into, but people don't know what they don't know. They don't know where to start. And I think crypto, not I think, Crypto Monday London's monthly events is a great place to start. It's a free event. It's always well attended, great content, great speakers, diverse speakers. I can't speak highly enough about it. And of course it's led by Kaitlin. So I think it's a great place to start because from there, if you ask the question, who else? Kaitlin is generous enough to say, yes, there's these different communities and you should try them out and to signpost similar to what I do. But I do have an issue with women who say there isn't a problem. Or, I've never had a problem, so I don't see what the problem is in regards to diversity and inclusion. That for me is a problem, you know? Because it kind of validates the ideology of those who hold the ideology that there isn't a problem and that women are just like, you know just complaining, so to speak.
It's also, I think, a bit of a privilege and entitlement to assume that your lived experience is everyone's lived experience. Just because you've never had a problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. So I think, and I do think to some extent, initiatives such as what you have with women in blockchain talks allows me the option to choose whether or not to lead with my gender. If things like your initiative, women in blockchain talks, and some of the other ones we named didn't exist, I would feel that much more compelled and obliged to lead with my gender because somebody does need to be doing it. These conversations need to be had. I've come at it from the viewpoint of I just want to put the work in. I just want to do the work. Well, so does everybody. Everybody just wants to do the work. But your very existence is somewhat of a radical thing because of what you look like and your gender. That isn't right. That's not the way that it should be. But that is the way that it is.
You know, I appreciate you saying that. And it's it's very key. I feel privileged. And I feel very privileged that I can do the work that I do and that I'm in a space and in a country where I have a voice to be able to talk about diversity. And when I talk about diversity, yes, we're women led, but we talk about diversity across the board. And one of the key things that I want my listeners to appreciate and to understand is that, and I...I'm talking here for the UK, I can't talk for other economies because I'm based here in the UK, but less than 2 % of women get funding for their businesses. But at the same time, it was reported last year, so 2023, that more women are starting businesses. And that via the Rose Review, which is a report that came out in the UK, that if women, women founders got funded, then we would be able to add 250 billion to the UK economy. So again, as Kaitlin touches upon, this conversation is key because it's not just about, oh, I'm a woman and I wanna talk about more women coming into the space. It's also the fact that there are more women starting businesses and as we already know, or as I know and Kaitlin know and people in this space, And if you just look at technology evolving over the last 20 years, blockchain, crypto, web three, and the whole ecosystem is not going anywhere. So that means to say there will be more people who will look to start a business in this space, but they need funding. And so the conversation piece is not just about women in blockchain, it's women in tech, women in business, women in funding or women getting funding and also women in VC. So it's across the board and it's a very important conversation and it's not one that we can have or should have in silo. With that being said, Caitlin, as the founder and CEO of Crypto Mondays London, could you share the story? Well, you've already touched on the exception of Crypto Mondays, but how do you think it contributes to the Crypto Monday?sorry to the crypto community and Web3 community. And in addition to that, do you find you're well travelled, you know, you are from the US, right? But you've been living in the UK for how many years now? 18 years. Wow, 18. So she's officially a British person, British American. So with that being said, do you find via your travels that the UK crypto and Web3 community is solid or fragmented or how do you view the space?
Okay, it's an interesting question. I think it very much depends on the person and how willing you are to put yourself out there because there will always be a variety of different types of events in any industry. So if we're looking in the Web3 space, you've got events that are geared much more towards institutions and banks and things like this. You've got events that are completely DeFi. You've got events that are nothing but NFTs. You've got events that...are education based, like Crypto Mondays, right, where you maybe touch on a little bit of everything. You've got communities that are based off of trading. You've got, my point is, you've got a community kind of for everything. There are certain events that take place throughout the year, certain conferences, I think bigger conferences that tend to pull everybody together. But I feel like it's as unified or as fragmented as you want it to be. So on the one hand, it's nice because you can be quite specific in what you're looking for. If what you need is funding and what you need is institutional funding, then okay, then you can look specifically for those type of events. So I think that, yeah, it really depends what kind of events you're going to. And I think there are some that cover everything. We certainly try to. I mean, with Crypt on Mondays, we are very open to collaborating with any other type of community out there, because I'm a big believer, like, we do not have to repeat things the way that we did in Web2. We get to start all over with Web3. And this is why I think things like having more women in the space, funding more women led projects, having more collaborative communities, these things are important and we can do it. There's space at the table for everybody. It doesn't need to be, I mean, I don't know about you, but I felt like with Web2, some of it was a generational age thing, because I feel like we're quite similar in age. With Web2, I feel like I missed the boat and part of it was being too young. But part of it was just feeling like by the time I learned about Silicon Valley and like, the internet and everything that was happening there, I felt like I'd missed out on the beginning of it. Whereas with Web3, we're all early adopters. There's still time. Like you said earlier, it's not too late. Anybody can join and learn and get involved. And so that to me is what's so exciting about this space. So going back to your question about sort of the community in London, I mean, I think it's such a big, exciting community that touch, but I see it very positively, you know, that touches on every...single subgenre that you could want in the industry. You can find those things and you can meet people and you just put yourself out there. So I think there are some silos. We sort of talked a little bit about this earlier too. There is some of that, you know, members only clubs or NFT gated communities. Those things will always exist, whether web two or web three and no hate on them because people are hustling, you know, so fair play, but those things will always exist. What you have to look for is the spaces outside of that that are doing a little bit more philanthropic or altruistic work.
I agree. I think my one thing though is when I think about Web3 and blockchain, I don't have an issue with the different genres of groups. What I have an issue with, if there is an issue, is...communities that come across as exclusive. And the only reason being is because when I think about blockchain and its egalitarian values, it's about inclusivity, it's about support, it's very community -oriented. And because of that, we have to build together. I mean, the crypto web three blockchain space isn't that huge because we are still new, we're early adopters. And so if we are already creating not just silos, but exclusive silos, then how do we move forward? How do we evolve? But those things will always exist. And I, in my view, they will always exist. I just let them be because I know that eventually we're going to move past that. People, I think, that create these type of, I don't know, I guess I view it as a barrier to entry. They create sort of exclusive places or whatever, they're trying to hold on to, I don't know, these last remnants of, you know, the last century. They don't want to lose that control, whatever that looks like, that power that they have. They're holding on to that for dear life. But I feel like all that's going to get left behind. So I just let them get on with it. You know,
I think that's a great attitude and a great point. So, yeah. And interestingly enough, some of the quote unquote closed communities that existed, you know, way back have since become very open because I think they've seen this way of working isn't sustainable in the long term when you've got something like you said as open, as welcoming, as inclusive as what the Web3 space is meant to be. And maybe that is a little optimistic of me, but I really do think that's the direction that we're heading. Yeah, no, I agree with you. And that's the direction that I drive my content and my mindset and my community about inclusivity because yeah, I just think together we can and if we are working towards the same values that blockchain and Web3 stands for, then there's no reason why we can't achieve that. So, you know, let's just touch on your role as the publisher of Blockbeats for CityAM. How do you approach covering crypto and blockchain topics to make them accessible to a broader audience?
It was actually one of the first things I chatted to the team about when I first started speaking to Citi AM was this idea of getting an idea of who their pre -existing readership is and how we would like to strategize our editorial content in order to onboard more people. So for me, it's an exercise in education. It always is in my view. You know, there's a very common saying that one of the biggest obstacles to mass adoption is lack of education. So I think that for many people, they still view the Web3 space as something that is intimidating, that they don't fully understand. They don't understand the magic internet money. And they see it as very scammy because, you know, frankly, they have what makes the news, right? The frauds and Sam Bickman fraud. These are the the luna terra crash. These are the things that make the news, unfortunately, the big the big news across across everyone. And so that gives us this kind of tough reputation. It makes us it challenges us, I think, to overcome these kinds of views that people have in this space. So for me, education is key. So one of the very first things I wanted to do was have a series, a weekly series talking about the basics. So I partnered up with an education initiative here in London. We're already doing brilliant things and they were coming at it from the view of financial literacy because Web two or web three, most people lack a really solid foundation of financial literacy. It doesn't exist. So I liked that they came at it from that view too because most of the readers of CityAM are working in the financial industry. Our distribution is mainly in the financial district. So bankers, people working in finance. So for me, it made sense to partner with them. So some of it's education. And then I think some of it is humanizing the technology. People see it as this far off thing that they don't really understand or they don't really see the use cases. So by having interviews with people where we touch on obviously, yes, the technology and what sort of gaps in the market they're resolving, what problems they're solving, it also is a way to get to know the person behind the tech and to understand the use cases a little better because I also think that's an in, if you will, for people to understand. How is this going to impact my day -to -day life? How is this going to help me and make things better?
I love that. I love that. I love the humanization of the tech and the tech words. And I'm all about that. But it'll be exciting to see if it works because it's still very new. I've only been there a couple of months now. But yeah, it'll be exciting to see in the next sort of readership survey that that CityAM conducts. What do people say? Have we changed their minds at all about crypto?
Well, you can only but try, you're definitely trying. And, but yeah, I, like I always say, before we are anything, we're human beings, so it's good to take that approach. So here's a question for you. Someone who is doing what you do in, with Blockbeats and CML, Crypto Monday London, what do you think are the most pressing issues facing the industry today? Like the top three, and why?
I mean, I definitely think that inclusivity is a big one that we are still working through. That's a huge one. I think when it comes to the tech, also, you know, going back to kind of the idea of mass adoption or what I think of as like the public sector adopting things, I think that the user experience is still very poor for the most part. This idea that...We use the internet and we don't need to know how the internet works. And we are not there yet with blockchain. If you want to use blockchain tech, you need to have some basic understanding of some very complicated technology. And I don't think that's helpful for your day -to -day user. So I think we're a fair ways, fair ways off from that still. So yeah, I would say diversity. I would also say education and onboarding. And then I would also say. Well, I was going to say I was going to get into AI a little bit, but that's kind of a different conversation because I think it just goes along. It's just yet another thing that people are fearful of and they lump it together. Obviously, you and I know AI does not equal blockchain. And in fact, they're quite separate and there is some overlap. But I think people just NFTs, AI, metaverse, they lump it all together as one big scary thing. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
So getting over that fear factor, which again, touches on your point about education. So my other question to you is looking ahead, what are your aspirations for Crypto Mondays London and your broader efforts to advance the crypto space and putting it in the context of a newcomer, what would you recommend to them?
As in, in terms of getting into the industry?
Yeah, and also probably being open minded to it. I mean, I say put yourself out there like you and I talked about earlier. We go to events and we're maybe the only woman there or in your case, the only black. But you know, you still go, you still go and you do it and you put yourself out there. And I would say that. And I would also say asking for help, because I think this is a quite open industry where people are willing to support each other. And I think when you don't have this fierce competition, It allows people to give a leg up where they can. And I think that's something really beautiful and collaborative about the Web3 space. I have absolutely reached out and been like, I need help. I'm overwhelmed. I don't know what's going on. I need support. And someone has always answered the call. So I would say ask for help, put yourself out there, and then be patient because it is complicated technology. I've been in it seven years and I'm still learning new things every day.I would never call myself an expert on the tech behind it, never.
Yeah, I love that and I do agree. So just one last question because, you know, I do know you have a theatre background. How have you brought your theatre train into the crypto space and CML and do you feel like it's added to your ability to put yourself out there, so to speak?
100%. I will say as a quick little correction from earlier, I did do acting, but I was primarily a theatre director. So I was the artistic director of a theater company called Teatro Libre for 13 years, and I directed the majority of the shows that we did. So I was also the resident director. So I always say, if you can direct a three week theater show, you can absolutely put on an event. There are loads of transferable skills there. But I will say things like public speaking, confidence, listening. collaborating with people, these are skills that you, that they're like a muscle, you have to work them, right? If you're never speaking to anyone or working together on a project, it's that much more difficult and challenging to have an end product that you're happy with. So for me, the biggest takeaways from theater were listening and working together with people because theater is massively collaborative, especially when you're directing. You've got to work not only with your cast of actors, but all of your designers all of your behind the scenes people, and you're all working together towards one common goal. So I find that, again, it's very similar with Crypto Mondays. I've got an amazing team. We work with them. We work with the speakers. We work with the venue. We all work together for this one outcome, which is the Crypto Mondays event. So yeah, I mean, I don't have any regrets about theater. I miss it terribly, but I basically shut it down during COVID. I just couldn't afford the overheads and pivoted fully and completely into the Web3 space. I imagine someday I'll go back to theatre. I'll be like that 70 year old woman at the local community theatre. I used to direct in London. You know, that's... Yeah.
Well, you know what? Your destiny is your destiny. And it all comes together to show us our purpose in whatever time of our life that we are in. So with that being said, thank you so much, Kaitlin, for joining us. Thank you, Lavinia. This was super fun. I feel like we just had a little chat. Yeah, we did. And I mean, like...
It's so much easier to do these conversations or these interviews when it's with a friend. So thank you for listening. For all of those of you who are listening, thank you for joining us and listening. I will be sharing details in the podcast notes about Kaitlin and also about Crypto Monday London. I think it's important to say that Crypto Mondays London is part of the bigger non -profit organization, which is Crypto Monday and they have them in New York, they have them in Switzerland, in Paris, in Atlanta, and so I'll be sharing details about Crypto Monday in the notes below. I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. Any questions, please send us your thoughts, put it in our social media, and I look forward to having you on the next episode. Bye.
